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	<title>Comments for Rumbelow (rŭm'-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</title>
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	<description>Things are not what they seem; nor are they otherwise.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:41:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Step Towards Peace: 1 by More on Joy &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</title>
		<link>http://rumbelow.org/2010/step-towards-peace-1/comment-page-1/#comment-5322</link>
		<dc:creator>More on Joy &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rumbelow.org/?p=219#comment-5322</guid>
		<description>[...] now, and what I&#8217;ve written all the time about buddha-nature, or Lao Tzu, or Stoicism, or just general common sense about enjoying the little things, but this, this is different. This isn&#8217;t just non-attachment in the sense that I&#8217;ve [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] now, and what I&#8217;ve written all the time about buddha-nature, or Lao Tzu, or Stoicism, or just general common sense about enjoying the little things, but this, this is different. This isn&#8217;t just non-attachment in the sense that I&#8217;ve [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on My Autobiography.  My Body by More on Joy &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</title>
		<link>http://rumbelow.org/2010/my-autobiography-my-body/comment-page-1/#comment-5321</link>
		<dc:creator>More on Joy &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rumbelow.org/?p=212#comment-5321</guid>
		<description>[...] it away, or both, or I&#8217;d need it &#8220;expressed.&#8221; Poems, screaming at clouds, engage in desructive behavior, or feel rather insande for however long the sadness lasted. While growing up, I realized that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it away, or both, or I&#8217;d need it &#8220;expressed.&#8221; Poems, screaming at clouds, engage in desructive behavior, or feel rather insande for however long the sadness lasted. While growing up, I realized that [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on When I was a child by More on Joy &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</title>
		<link>http://rumbelow.org/2011/when-i-was-a-child/comment-page-1/#comment-5320</link>
		<dc:creator>More on Joy &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2012 02:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rumbelow.org/?p=371#comment-5320</guid>
		<description>[...] Before I had grown up, I didn&#8217;t know that I was already dead in the future. I didn&#8217;t know that I was the worst at things. I didn&#8217;t know how to lose, or be sad, or win, or be happy, or fall in love, or let it go. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Before I had grown up, I didn&#8217;t know that I was already dead in the future. I didn&#8217;t know that I was the worst at things. I didn&#8217;t know how to lose, or be sad, or win, or be happy, or fall in love, or let it go. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Lucy and I by Yahallelu, Alhamdulillah, etc. &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</title>
		<link>http://rumbelow.org/2010/lucy-and-i/comment-page-1/#comment-5318</link>
		<dc:creator>Yahallelu, Alhamdulillah, etc. &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rumbelow.org/?p=232#comment-5318</guid>
		<description>[...] When I was in France, we had a week of bible discussion about Elijah. Elijah wasn&#8217;t, in my opinion, the best of prophets. He did a lot of improvisation that God hadn&#8217;t explicitly authorized, he was full of self pity, he exaggurated all of his problems, and apparently never doubted himself about these things &#8212; if anything, he doubted God when things weren&#8217;t going right. After a while, Elijah went to find some answers. He spends exactly one really long time in the desert (introspection) and then climbs up the mountains where it all started (meditation). On that mountain (in a state of meditation) Elijah meets God (). What happened was that a hurricane happened, and then a volcano, and an atomic bomb went off and all this crazy crap, but God was not in the hurricane, nor the earthquake, nor the atomic bomb, nor any of the tremendous things, but at the end, there was a &#8220;still small voice&#8221; in which Elijah finally found God. (This is all in 1 Kings 19:11ish) In our discussion groups afterwards, we started talking about when we hear God&#8217;s still small voice. &#8230; Oh, crap! I&#8217;ve never listened for God&#8217;s still small voice. As a mystic, I can&#8217;t believe that God is not in the earthquake or the napalm strikes, and in fact, the worst situations in my life are the ones through which I feel most closely connected to the divine. I realized during that first week in Taize that it&#8217;s been my habit for the last 8 years or more to listen to God in the storms, but hardly ever in the stillness.  Sometimes silence (aloneness) has been a storm in and of itself for me [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] When I was in France, we had a week of bible discussion about Elijah. Elijah wasn&#8217;t, in my opinion, the best of prophets. He did a lot of improvisation that God hadn&#8217;t explicitly authorized, he was full of self pity, he exaggurated all of his problems, and apparently never doubted himself about these things &#8212; if anything, he doubted God when things weren&#8217;t going right. After a while, Elijah went to find some answers. He spends exactly one really long time in the desert (introspection) and then climbs up the mountains where it all started (meditation). On that mountain (in a state of meditation) Elijah meets God (). What happened was that a hurricane happened, and then a volcano, and an atomic bomb went off and all this crazy crap, but God was not in the hurricane, nor the earthquake, nor the atomic bomb, nor any of the tremendous things, but at the end, there was a &#8220;still small voice&#8221; in which Elijah finally found God. (This is all in 1 Kings 19:11ish) In our discussion groups afterwards, we started talking about when we hear God&#8217;s still small voice. &#8230; Oh, crap! I&#8217;ve never listened for God&#8217;s still small voice. As a mystic, I can&#8217;t believe that God is not in the earthquake or the napalm strikes, and in fact, the worst situations in my life are the ones through which I feel most closely connected to the divine. I realized during that first week in Taize that it&#8217;s been my habit for the last 8 years or more to listen to God in the storms, but hardly ever in the stillness.  Sometimes silence (aloneness) has been a storm in and of itself for me [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Violence is Suicide: (I&#8217;d rather stand in front of guns than behind the people holding them) by Osama bin Laden &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</title>
		<link>http://rumbelow.org/2009/violence-is-suicide-id-rather-stand-in-front-of-guns-than-behind-the-people-holding-them/comment-page-1/#comment-5310</link>
		<dc:creator>Osama bin Laden &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 May 2011 10:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rumbelow.org/?p=195#comment-5310</guid>
		<description>[...] Maybe you&#8217;re curious about my overarching views on violence.  Maybe. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Maybe you&#8217;re curious about my overarching views on violence.  Maybe. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Quitting Music Forever. (not) by nommomuntu</title>
		<link>http://rumbelow.org/2011/quitting-music-forever-not/comment-page-1/#comment-5309</link>
		<dc:creator>nommomuntu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Apr 2011 04:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rumbelow.org/?p=22#comment-5309</guid>
		<description>&quot;Perhaps if you haven’t completely failed at something in a while, you’re not trying anything worth while.&quot;

Thank you for that. I think it&#039;s true. Most worthwhile endeavors are bound to have some failures along the way, though there are some NOT worthwhile things one could fail at, too. 

Also, sometimes a simple up-down-up pattern is all you need. And sometimes, things are better not sung, but better just spoken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Perhaps if you haven’t completely failed at something in a while, you’re not trying anything worth while.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thank you for that. I think it&#8217;s true. Most worthwhile endeavors are bound to have some failures along the way, though there are some NOT worthwhile things one could fail at, too. </p>
<p>Also, sometimes a simple up-down-up pattern is all you need. And sometimes, things are better not sung, but better just spoken.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Austria:  Two Weeks and Then Some by Lonesome Wolf in Austria &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</title>
		<link>http://rumbelow.org/2011/austria-two-weeks-and-then-some/comment-page-1/#comment-5308</link>
		<dc:creator>Lonesome Wolf in Austria &#124; Rumbelow (rŭm&#8217;-bĭ-lō): A combination of meaningless syllables</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rumbelow.org/?p=229#comment-5308</guid>
		<description>[...] Austria: Two Weeks and Then Some [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Austria: Two Weeks and Then Some [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Consensual Reality by nommomuntu</title>
		<link>http://rumbelow.org/2010/consensual-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-5307</link>
		<dc:creator>nommomuntu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2011 18:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rumbelow.org/?p=361#comment-5307</guid>
		<description>Thank you for these explanations. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Thank you for being you, thank me for being me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for these explanations. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Thank you for being you, thank me for being me.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Consensual Reality by Billy</title>
		<link>http://rumbelow.org/2010/consensual-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-5303</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Mar 2011 05:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rumbelow.org/?p=361#comment-5303</guid>
		<description>I somehow missed your last comment until months later, but I don&#039;t like leaving the door open knowingly, so I&#039;m responding after all this time.  

I don&#039;t know enough about Transcendentalism to make any assertions about it compared to Enlightenment, and right now I&#039;ll yeild to tradition:  There are little or no positive assertations about Enlightenment in the Buddhist tradition --- only what it is not.  

As far as Before/After Zen and chopping wood and carrying water:  You mentioned at first acknowledging that sadness exists for each person, even though it is just a construct we create in our minds.  The Zen saying is used to explain that the exact same things that were &quot;suffering&quot; before enlightenment exist just the same, but now they are not contributing to your suffering.  You travel down the long road to find enlightenment, only to realize that it was literally right there all along.  (See any of my posts on Buddha Nature)

Dostoevsky and Shame:
Immediately my thoughts go to absurd situations:  if you need public humiliation and shaming for proper growth, can you not accomplish growth in solitary confinement in prison?  A small desert island, etc.?    
What I think I&#039;d relate that to is the Buddhist concept of &quot;skillful means.&quot;  A parable that goes with that is a raft.  You ride a raft to cross the river, but no matter how important the raft was, you must leave it behind to continue on your journey.  Skillful means are things that help us with our progress, but they must ultimately be left on the other shore if we&#039;re to get beyond that particular &quot;river.&quot;    
My life is littered with bias coming from a Catholic school upbringing, so I tend to view all of our western society through that lens and would immediately think that our society focuses too much on the shame, and not enough on moving past it.  A man is hanging off a cliff by a small root, about to fall.  Jesus walks to the ledge and offers the man help.  &quot;You must do exactly what I say or else I cannot help you.&quot;  The man nods frantically and exclaims, &quot;anything!&quot;  Jesus replies, &quot;You&#039;re going to need to let go of the root.&quot;  The man looks down, then up again, then down, and shakes his head, &quot;no.&quot;  
&quot;How can I help you if you never let go of your plight,&quot; Christ says, and walks away, very sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I somehow missed your last comment until months later, but I don&#8217;t like leaving the door open knowingly, so I&#8217;m responding after all this time.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know enough about Transcendentalism to make any assertions about it compared to Enlightenment, and right now I&#8217;ll yeild to tradition:  There are little or no positive assertations about Enlightenment in the Buddhist tradition &#8212; only what it is not.  </p>
<p>As far as Before/After Zen and chopping wood and carrying water:  You mentioned at first acknowledging that sadness exists for each person, even though it is just a construct we create in our minds.  The Zen saying is used to explain that the exact same things that were &#8220;suffering&#8221; before enlightenment exist just the same, but now they are not contributing to your suffering.  You travel down the long road to find enlightenment, only to realize that it was literally right there all along.  (See any of my posts on Buddha Nature)</p>
<p>Dostoevsky and Shame:<br />
Immediately my thoughts go to absurd situations:  if you need public humiliation and shaming for proper growth, can you not accomplish growth in solitary confinement in prison?  A small desert island, etc.?<br />
What I think I&#8217;d relate that to is the Buddhist concept of &#8220;skillful means.&#8221;  A parable that goes with that is a raft.  You ride a raft to cross the river, but no matter how important the raft was, you must leave it behind to continue on your journey.  Skillful means are things that help us with our progress, but they must ultimately be left on the other shore if we&#8217;re to get beyond that particular &#8220;river.&#8221;<br />
My life is littered with bias coming from a Catholic school upbringing, so I tend to view all of our western society through that lens and would immediately think that our society focuses too much on the shame, and not enough on moving past it.  A man is hanging off a cliff by a small root, about to fall.  Jesus walks to the ledge and offers the man help.  &#8220;You must do exactly what I say or else I cannot help you.&#8221;  The man nods frantically and exclaims, &#8220;anything!&#8221;  Jesus replies, &#8220;You&#8217;re going to need to let go of the root.&#8221;  The man looks down, then up again, then down, and shakes his head, &#8220;no.&#8221;<br />
&#8220;How can I help you if you never let go of your plight,&#8221; Christ says, and walks away, very sad.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Consensual Reality by nommomuntu</title>
		<link>http://rumbelow.org/2010/consensual-reality/comment-page-1/#comment-5302</link>
		<dc:creator>nommomuntu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Dec 2010 06:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rumbelow.org/?p=361#comment-5302</guid>
		<description>Hmm... I have always liked the Transcendentalists. Things to ponder: How far away is enlightenment from transcendence? How much more desirable is enlightenment than transcendence? Hmm...

Also- I&#039;m afraid I don&#039;t understand what is meant by: &quot;...before Zen, there is chopping wood and carrying water. After Enlightenment there is chopping wood and carrying water.&quot; Could you clarify?

Since my last comment, I have worked on defying shame, and have come very far, I think. However, I&#039;ve also been reading some of Dostoevsky, who would argue that shame isn&#039;t worthless, as you said- in fact, to him, full repentance for any sin DEPENDS on public humiliation and shame. According to Dostoevsky, only through this process are we refined into better humans. Sometimes I believe him, and believe I should buy into this dominant collective understanding of shame and its consequences. Do you have any thoughts on this? 


And now... some relevant lyrics!

&quot;Once when our mother called / She had a voice of last year&#039;s cough. / We passed around the phone, / Sharing a word about Oregon. / When my turn came, I was ashamed. / When my turn came, I was ashamed.  / We saw her once last fall. / Our grandpa died in a hospital gown. / She didn&#039;t seem to care. / She smoked in her room and colored her hair. / I was ashamed, I was ashamed of her.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm&#8230; I have always liked the Transcendentalists. Things to ponder: How far away is enlightenment from transcendence? How much more desirable is enlightenment than transcendence? Hmm&#8230;</p>
<p>Also- I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t understand what is meant by: &#8220;&#8230;before Zen, there is chopping wood and carrying water. After Enlightenment there is chopping wood and carrying water.&#8221; Could you clarify?</p>
<p>Since my last comment, I have worked on defying shame, and have come very far, I think. However, I&#8217;ve also been reading some of Dostoevsky, who would argue that shame isn&#8217;t worthless, as you said- in fact, to him, full repentance for any sin DEPENDS on public humiliation and shame. According to Dostoevsky, only through this process are we refined into better humans. Sometimes I believe him, and believe I should buy into this dominant collective understanding of shame and its consequences. Do you have any thoughts on this? </p>
<p>And now&#8230; some relevant lyrics!</p>
<p>&#8220;Once when our mother called / She had a voice of last year&#8217;s cough. / We passed around the phone, / Sharing a word about Oregon. / When my turn came, I was ashamed. / When my turn came, I was ashamed.  / We saw her once last fall. / Our grandpa died in a hospital gown. / She didn&#8217;t seem to care. / She smoked in her room and colored her hair. / I was ashamed, I was ashamed of her.&#8221;</p>
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